|
 HK91.COM
 HK-Compatible Guns
 Need detailed info on building an HK-51 (Page 1)
|
 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 |
next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: Need detailed info on building an HK-51 |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 04-18-2001 14:16
   
Hey! Two posts and no flames yet. I may have found a home. OK. Now, for the question. Forgive me for my ignorance of nomenclature, but I want to build one of the .308 caliber semis that look like a MP5/HK94 but with a giant magazine poking out of it. I'm pretty handy with basic tools, and I've built a few AR-15's. The question is (finally), where do I find out how short to cut the cocking tube, and I guess the bolt carrier tube, or whatever has to be shortened? Also, who did you guys say sold the barrel already milled for this type of project? Thanks! IP: Logged |
|
gunplumber Member Posts: 61 |
posted 04-18-2001 20:11
I guess the first step is pay the $200, get a CLEO signature, and get an approved form ATF Form 1. If you have state or local laws prohibitting SBRs, then the point is moot. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 04-18-2001 22:17
no, no! :eek I dont want it to be an sbr. I want the 16.5 in barrel hanging off the end, like the civilian 94's. Now can you tell me what the magic formula is?  IP: Logged |
|
usp40 Member Posts: 201 |
posted 04-19-2001 13:47
Email me and I can get you the measurements off of my HK51. The carrier gets hollowed out in the middle on BOTH sides and the cocking tube and carrier are shortened. The buttstock is also tampered with. The recoil tube (the metal tube that holds the spring onto the buttstock) is shortened and there are 14 revolutions cutt off the coil of the spring. I know this because I have done it to my A3 and an A2 buttstock for my 51. Gunplumber is right in saying that it is a mood point of you don't make it an SBR, but I will get you the dimensions off of mine if you would like along with photos next to my 91? IP: Logged |
|
killerkain Member Posts: 662 |
posted 04-19-2001 14:34
He said he wanted it to have a 16.5" barrel, not an SBR so he won't need to register it with the NFA. Without the proper jigs and templates you're probably going to butcher your gun. You can make the necessary jigs given you have the proper dimensions, but having a total stranger tape measure an existing HK51 then email you his findings isn't exactly scientific. You'll probably need one on hand to examine when necessary, or to "reverse engineer" if you will. Chances are you would be better off sending the gun to a qualified HK smith and having the work done. It costs about $650 for Jim at Protech to do the work. It's a small price to pay to avoid trashing a $2,000 pre-ban rifle. Also, if his barrel is 16.5" all the lighting cuts done to your HK51's bolt carrier, USP40, won't be necessary. Some cutting will be necessary on the carrier though. Also, he will have to contact a knowledgeable HK smith to figure out what rollers and locking piece he needs to make it lock properly... and it goes without saying this part is crucial. ------------------ [This message has been edited by killerkain (edited 04-19-2001).] IP: Logged |
|
usp40 Member Posts: 201 |
posted 04-19-2001 15:31
If all wea re doing is cutting down a 91 to 16.5", then it is no where near a 51! I was under the assumption that you wanted to make a HK51? Also, I have dial calipers, so a tape measure is NOT necessary. And another thing, if you want to send a gun to Jim Gravit, you are NUTS! I FINALLY got ahold of him today after about a week of calling. He is supposed to do another 51 for me. FAT CHANCE! He has NOT strated his HK batch yet. He TOLD me that most likely it will NOT be until September or October that I get my gun. In the meantime, I have ALREADY received my paperwork back from ATF classifying the receiver as a SBR. (It came in todays mail!) Now what? I also know that he has a friend of mine's HK33 to make it work properly and cut it down to a HK53. I called Terry and spoke with him about it and he will NOT do mine because it is a FMP receiver. IP: Logged |
|
killerkain Member Posts: 662 |
posted 04-19-2001 15:43
quote: He is talking about a HK51, take a look: ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
usp40 Member Posts: 201 |
posted 04-19-2001 15:54
You are correct in stating/showing that the pic is a TRUE HK51, but all of the 51's that I am familiar with have a 10" barrel and are either SBR's or F/A's. Remember, you saw/shot mine? The most akward gun to shoot with a A3 stock on it. Very uncomfortable, but accurrate! You ARE correct though. The longer barrel (HK94 look) is designated as a HK51, and NOT the 10" like I am referring to.
IP: Logged |
|
Ace Member Posts: 22 |
posted 04-19-2001 20:35
The 51 is an interesting beast. Does it weigh less than a std 91? How is the reliability/etc? I had never understood what one was untill I read this thread. Thx-Ace IP: Logged |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 04-19-2001 21:54
kk, you are absolutely correct. That is **EXACTLY** what i want. Not sure about the legality of the collapsing stock, but I'll still find one, and down the road, maybe the world will change. Ace, if you have never shot one of these things, you are depriving yourself. I got an opportunity once awhile back, changed my life. usp40, i would gladly accept any measurements, photos, hints, lies, whatever you care to send me. i'll send you an email shortly. Youre right, i WOULD prefer a sbr, but i am allergic to paperwork. So, i have an Uzi with a barrel as long as the reciever. kk, thanks for the info. Especially since you dont know me, and i could be an idiot with a hacksaw. i'm not. i intend to get a lot of information from several sources and see what syncs up and what doesn't. I never thought about bolt weight coming into play. I figured there would be enough pressure from the length of the barrel. As far as actually having one present to work from, i agree completely, but it isnt an option. If a picture is worth a thousand words, then being there is worth a thousand pictures! Ditto having it sent off. I want to see if i can do it myself, crazy as that sounds. i've done a lot of reverse engineering for electronics projects, understand the concept completely. Figured it could apply here, too. But, what about these 'templates' ? is there a book or kit for this project? IP: Logged |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 04-19-2001 22:28
usp40, you got mail!! And, following the other thread, isn't Mr. Gravitt on this board? Why hasnt he replied? Hmmmmm.... IP: Logged |
|
usp40 Member Posts: 201 |
posted 04-19-2001 22:39
Maybe he is NOW getting to work on our guns! After we bitched! IP: Logged |
|
usp40 Member Posts: 201 |
posted 04-19-2001 22:42
Hotmail is down right now, so I will respond to your email tomorrow night. SORRY, but blame them. IP: Logged |
|
MWDG3 Member Posts: 470 |
posted 04-19-2001 23:56
quote: Search Mr. Gravitt's posts and you'll see he doesn't have a lot of time to surf. The ONLY complaint I've heard of him concerns his time judgement. On the other hand, I know the other builder's are booked a couple of months ahead, as well. Not that I question Jim's honesty, but if I wanted my project back from any builder, I would want it in my hands before started laying out lead! ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 04-20-2001 12:30
usp40, no prob. Must be communicable. I got about 5 error 500's last night before i could post here. Believe me, I am in NO RUSH on this project. Just in the information gathering mode. i am still curious about all the templates and jigs, though. Anybody have a picture or a diagram of one they'd like to share? When i get done with mine, i will be more than happy to post what i have learned and built, maybe the moderator gods can compile it into a faq or a page like the one on sw fixes......seems to be a lot of interest in this flavor (51)of black gun. IP: Logged |
|
DogByte Member Posts: 30 |
posted 04-24-2001 20:22
high_order1, I am just about to start such a project as well....could you e-mail me with your e-mail address? I've been looking for someone to collaborate with on such a project. I have some skills and some ideas, but I'd rather do it correctly the first time around! Thanks! IP: Logged |
|
sparky Member Posts: 153 |
posted 04-25-2001 02:01
USP40 Jim Gravitt has my gun now I would rather wait on it and get a good job. Terry Dyer told me himself if its not german he won't work on it so he's no use at all to you and me I call it stuck up. And what makes you think anybody would be quicker? While waiting to me no one is fast enough. IP: Logged |
|
DogByte Member Posts: 30 |
posted 04-25-2001 07:11
high_order1, Here's a link that might help: http://user.icx.net/~jonesgil/HK51.HTM The pics are kinda' fuzzy (out of focus), but it's the web site that got me interested in this project in the first place. If you're interested in collaborating on a legal 16.5" barrelled semi, my e-mail is puppydog@dogbytesman.com (yes, I know that I already mentioned that above, but I'm desperate for any info anyone has!). Thanks! IP: Logged |
|
Jen Administrator Posts: 72 |
posted 04-25-2001 07:40
High: Maybe I missed this, but are you trying to build a HK51 out of a existing Pre-Ban 91 or out of a Post-Ban Receiver/Kit? Depending on which you are attempting it will make a MAJOR difference in what you can do especially with that retractable stock. IP: Logged |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 04-25-2001 16:40
Sorry all, been gone a couple days; check in, and lo and behold.....MAIL! Dog, be happy to collaborate. Thats the exact reason I surfaced, normally I'm content to watch. Sending email shortly... Jen, Thats a great question. Initially, it was gonna be based off of a German recievered Pre - Ban I have, but a couple weeks into this....don't think so. I might even be crazy enough to hack up a CETME. I will have one eventually, and I really wanna try doing it myself. On another note, got a copy of the AGI D-I-Y G3 course, little less than impressed. What can you get away with on a post ban reciever kit? Thanks all! IP: Logged |
|
sparky Member Posts: 153 |
posted 04-26-2001 02:16
No retractable stock on a post-ban. IP: Logged |
|
Jen Administrator Posts: 72 |
posted 04-26-2001 05:02
No Retractable Stock, No Flash Suppressors, No Bayonet Lugs, And to top it off you need a Minimum Number of US MFGd parts replacing your perfectly good original ones to make sure the rifle has no more than 10 foreign parts in it per ATF rules. That's if you go Post-Ban on it. Personally I would likely send a pre-ban off to a smith who's done this kind of conversion before and be happy with the pre-ban features the gun has (Not to mention original parts). IP: Logged |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 04-26-2001 06:45
Sooo........what about this? Ive seen tele and folding stocks for the AR and SKS, what would the ATF say if I pinned the stock open/closed????? IP: Logged |
|
usp40 Member Posts: 201 |
posted 04-26-2001 08:05
It will HAVE to be pinned open. It is NO different than the SW5 with the side folding stock that is pinned open. It is VERY impractical to have a scoped stock on the 51 anyways. It hurts your cheek when firing. I will have pics and specs for those of you that emailed me for specs and pics next week. I JUST found my digital camera and I am moving this weekend. SORRY!!!! IP: Logged |
|
DogByte Member Posts: 30 |
posted 04-27-2001 08:09
usp40, Thanks for the info, and don't worry about the glitches....if computers always worked right, then everybody would be using them. Er, something like that I have an HK telestock (I agree....beats the cheek up on firing) and a Choate folder for my 91. At the cost these two are going for, I'm VERY reluctant to pin either of them open. Hmmmm....I have some ideas that I'm working on and collaborating with high_order1. I'm working off a post-ban receiver and G3 parts kit, so I'm more interested in any specs anyone has. However, it's no great loss to me that I can't have the other "evil" features like the bayo lug, etc. I can live without those. I want this to be a COMPLETELY legal rifle. Don't care to be mixing it up with BATF. My main concern is where to get the funky forearm with the vent holes.... Thanks! IP: Logged |
|
Jen Administrator Posts: 72 |
posted 04-27-2001 12:22
High: If you plan on Pinning a side folder or colapsing stock or otherwise rendering it 'non operational' for the sake of complying with the assault weapons ban you may wish to run whatever plans you have for making it non-operational by the ATF Technology branch to verify that it is a legal method of rendering it non operational. Certainly having side rails installed on the receiver via welding would render a retractable non-operational as it couldn't colapse due to the welded channel. Pinning is something ATF tends to be a little more paticular on in that if the pins can easily be removed and the stock easily rendered folding or retractable again then it's illegal. Things would be so much less confusing if we didn't have all these silly rules, but since we do.. always best to cover your butt. IP: Logged |
|
DogByte Member Posts: 30 |
posted 04-27-2001 13:00
Jen, Playing devil's advocate here..... So from what you just said above, is it your take that the BATF would be okay with me welding the side rail channel closed, and then installing an operational collapsible stock (which, of course, couldn't collapse)? Is it the stock they want to regulate, or is it the ability of the stock to collapse that they want to regulate? I think I know the answer already (and believe me I'd confirm it with the BATF before I ever did such a thing), but with you being an RKI (and me being a newbie) I'm eager for your opinion. Thanks! IP: Logged |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 04-27-2001 15:50
ATF notwithstanding, I'm really queasy about welding up the rails on the reciever. I would rather concentrate on the stock. Cos, you never know, they may change their minds! I've got some ideas about how to **permanently** keep the stock from collapsing. Besides, knowing how they operate, I'm not sure how prudent it would be to submit a foia request, in effect, saying " I'm into gunsmithing, now". Kind of the same concept why I always tried to sit in the back of the class, yaknow?? IP: Logged |
|
sparky Member Posts: 153 |
posted 04-27-2001 18:19
The funky forearm is a MP5 I think. IP: Logged |
|
usp40 Member Posts: 201 |
posted 04-27-2001 18:20
The forearm with the vent holes is NOTHING. Get an MP5 forearm and I know a guy that vents them. He did mine and it looks the same. He did it for a fee of a 6 pack. So for $57 I had a 51 handguard made. Le me know if you are interested after you see mine. IP: Logged |
|
DogByte Member Posts: 30 |
posted 04-28-2001 17:29
usp40, The handguard idea sounds good! Pardon the probably oft-repeated question, but where could I obtain a reasonably-priced 94 forearm? I see that at AA-OK they are going for $70.....anyone have any cheaper sources? Thanks! IP: Logged |
|
SD FALER Member Posts: 13 |
posted 05-01-2001 22:56
high_order1, Someone more learned may correct me, if you want any of the banned features on a gun, can you pay a small tax and register it under NFA?. I seem to remember Olympic Arms telling me that a collapsible stocked gun can be registered under a law (NFA) for a small fee if it is legal otherwise. Not sure, someone confirm please. IP: Logged |
|
JeffG Member Posts: 48 |
posted 05-02-2001 23:46
SD Faler, No. Either you or Olympic was confused. If it is a new rifle, and if it is semiautomatic accepting detachable magazines, it must comly with the 1994 Crime Bill. Please notice this is very different than any import restrictions. IP: Logged |
|
jcotter Member Posts: 24 |
posted 05-03-2001 07:42
quote: The fee for registering a Short Barreled rifle is $200.00. A short barreled rifle is classified as an NFA Firearm. NFA Firearms are subject to the assault weapons ban (no more than two "evil" features). However NFA Firearms are not subject to import ban laws. So if you register your rifle as an SBR you would not have to replace import parts with US made parts. IP: Logged |
|
high_order1 Member Posts: 42 |
posted 05-03-2001 20:46
Man, all that gibberish is confusing. IP: Logged |
This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 All times are CT (US) | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
  |
|
Contact Us | HK91.COM
© 1999-2000 HK91.com
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46